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Mar 21, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52
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#1 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Guild: TLP/MU
Profession: R/
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Paragon PvE skill rework
First of all, these ideas are just suggestions. I'm not an expert with playing Paragon but I know some of the basics.
Second I you don't agree with the above changes suggest some yourself instead of flaming. And third please no whining about that Elementalist and smiting monks should get a skill change first (like my assassin thread) these are just suggestions, I’m not saying that paragons should have a skill change immediately. Chants If Paragons should get an overhaul chants are one of the first things that spring to my mind. Some chants (Weariness, Flame and Envy) see some play but most don't. Especially the chants in the motivation line, that make up over 50% of the skills. So I decided to make chants work different. I made chants a bit like their real life counterparts. Now all chants have a long activation time (5->10 seconds). While activating chants party member will gain their benefit. When you finish casting the chant just goes in recharge (and you gain energy with Leadership). Maybe some people can thing of some kickass end effect but that would be a little bit to OP imo. And for the people that are interested, chants will be send into recharge even if you cancel them yourself (to prevent abuse). Also with this change I would change the function of Leadership. Now Leadership effect would be: "You gain 1 Energy for each ally affected by one of your Shouts or Chants (maximum 1 Energy for every 2 ranks). In PvE Leadership increases the casting time of Chants by 4% for each rank of Leadership. So now you can cast your chants longer with a higher rank of Leadership. This will give the Paragons a serious advantage over non-paragons when casting chants. Even though most chants will have powerful effects they do come with some downsides. So here is a list with the pro's and cons of chants. Pro's Effects are powerful and party wide (in earshot). Will give an unique feel when playing a Paragon. Cons You can't do anything else while casting a chant (except activation shouts/stances) Because chants work with casting time you can be interrupted anytime. I also changed the function of the names that come with the chants. Anthem's still affect attack skills. Aria's now effects spells targeting opponents. Ballads still activate on taking damage. Choruses now effects allies under 75% health. Lyrics now effects spells targeting allies. Songs are now always active. And now without further explanations, the reworked chants. Anthem of Disruption 10e - 10sec - 10r Chant. While chanting a Anthem of Disruption, party members within earshot interrupt target whenever they hit critical with an attack skill. Anthem of Envy 15e - 10sec - 20r Chant. While chanting a Anthem of Envy, party members within earshot deal +5…15 damage whenever they hit with an attack skill against a foe with more than 50% health. Anthem of Guidance [E] 15e - 10sec - 20r Elite Chant. While chanting a Anthem of Guidance, the attack skills of party members within earshot cannot be blocked. Anthem of Weariness 10e - 10sec - 15r Chant. While chanting a Anthem of Weariness, party members within earshot inflict Weakness for 0…5 seconds whenever they hit with an attack skill. Crippling Anthem [E] 15e - 10sec - 20r Elite Chant. While chanting a Crippling Anthem, the attack skills of party members within earshot have 5…20% armor penetration. (Changed the effect completely, only downside is that the name doesn't make sense anymore.) Anthem of Flame 15e - 5sec - 15r Chant. While chanting a Anthem of Flame, party members within earshot inflict Burning for 0…3 seconds whenever they hit with an attack skill. Anthem of Fury [E] 10e - 5sec - 15r Elite Chant. While chanting a Anthem of Fury, party members within earshot gain 1…2 strikes of adrenaline whenever they hit with an attack skill. Defensive Anthem [E] 15e - 10sec - 20r Elite Chant. While chanting a Defensive Anthem, party members within earshot have a 50% chance to block incoming attacks. This Chant is removed if they hit with an attack skill. Zealous Anthem 15e - 5sec -10r Chant. While chanting a Zealous Anthem, party members within earshot gain 0…1 Energy whenever they hit with an attack skill. Hexbreaker Aria 15e - 5sec - 20r Chant. While chanting a Hexbreaker Aria, party members within earshot lose 1 hex whenever they cast a spell that targets an opponent. Aria of Restoration 10e - 10sec - 20r Chant. While chanting a Aria of Restoration, party members within earshot gain 5…40 health whenever they cast a spell that targets an opponent. Aria of Zeal 10e - 10sec - 20r Chant. While chanting a Aria of Zeal, party members within earshot gain 0…1 Energy whenever they cast a spell that targets an opponent. Ballad of Restoration 10e - 10sec - 20r Chant. While chanting a Ballad of Restoration, party members within earshot gain 5…30 health whenever they take damage. Chorus of Restoration 10e - 10sec -15r Chant. While chanting a Chorus of Restoration, party members within earshot under 75% health gain +1…8 health regeneration. Energizing Chorus 15e - 10sec - 20r Chant. While chanting a Energizing Chorus, party members within earshot under 75% health gain +0…2 Energy regeneration. Lyric of Purification 5e - 5sec - 10r Chant. While chanting a Lyric of Purification, party members within earshot lose 1 condition whenever they cast a spell that targets an ally. Lyric of Zeal 10e - 10sec - 20r Chant. While chanting a Lyric of Zeal, party members within earshot gain 0...2 Energy whenever they cast a spell that targets an ally. Song of Concentration 15e -10sec - 20r Chant. While chanting a Song of Concentration, party members within earshot cannot be interrupted, but lose 10…3 Energy whenever they would have been interrupted. Song of Power 25e - 10sec -20r Chant. While chanting a Song of Power, party members within earshot gain 0…4 health regeneration and 0…2 Energy regeneration. Song of Purification [E] 10e - 10sec - 20r Elite Chant. While chanting a Song of Purification, party members within earshot lose 1 condition every 5…1 second(s) and lose 1 hex every 10...3 seconds.. Song of Restoration [E] 10e - 5sec - 10r Elite Chant. While chanting a Song of Restoration, party members within earshot gain 5…30 health each second. Of course I didn't stop with just the Chants so heres the rest of the skills I worked out. Command Actually surprised me how many good skills this attribute already had, only needed to rework 4. "Brace Yourself!" 10e - 10r Shout. For 0…8 seconds, party members within earshot cannot be knocked down. "Help Me!" 10e - 30r Shout. For 10…20 seconds, spells targeting party members under 50% health cast 50% faster. (how mutch use has a skill that lets allies cast their spells 50% faster at a 80 AL midliner?) "Incoming!" [E] 5e - 15r Elite Shout. For 4…10 seconds, all allies within earshot gain +10…40 armor. (Party wide 33% IMS and healing while running was fun but doesn't really disserve a Elite status IMO.) "Make Haste!" 5e - 5r Shout. For 1…15 seconds, target other ally moves 33% faster. This skill ends if that ally successfully hits with an attack. Leadership Good energy management, bad skills. "Lead the Way!" 10e - 3r Shout. For 4…10 seconds target ally moves 25% faster and has +5…30 armor. This shout ends after 1…3 incoming attacks. "Make Your Time!" 4a - 20r Shout. Your next Chant takes 0…5 seconds longer to cast. Angelic Bond [E] 8a - 5r Elite Skill. For 30 seconds, whenever target other ally would take fatal damage, that damage is negated, you take 100…25% of that damage and that ally is healed for 20...180 Health. (May look a bit OP but I quested that with a 8 adrenaline requirement and a 5sec recharge this skills is well balanced) Angelic Protection 5e - 10r Skill. For 10 seconds, damage received by target other ally is reduced by 1…20 Awe 5e - 1/2sec - 10r Skill. If this skill hits a knocked-down foe, that foe becomes Dazed for 1…5 seconds. Awe has half the normal range. Burning Shield 5a Skill. For 3…10 seconds, the next attack skill used against target ally is Blocked. If it was a melee attack, the attacker is set on fire for 1...5 seconds. Glowing Signet 1sec - 10r Signet. If target foe is Burning, all nearby foes start burning for 1…4 seconds. (In most cases a Paragon is able to manage his energy with leadership.) Hasty Refrain 5e - 1sec - 10r Echo. For 3…10 seconds, target ally moves and attacks 25% faster. This echo is reapplied every time a chant or shout ends on that ally. Natural Temper 6a - 4r Stance. For 4…10 seconds, you gain 25…50% more adrenaline while not under the effects of an enchantment. Spear Swipe 6a - 8r Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +5...17 damage, if target foe is suffering from a condition that foe is knocked down. This attack has melee range. Motivation This attribute has a lot of promise, to bad it is full of useless skills. "It's Just a Flesh Wound." [E] 5e - 2r Elite Shout. Target other ally loses all conditions. If a condition was removed in this way that ally has +1…5 health regeneration for 1…10 seconds. (Good effect, but why a +25% IMS I don't know.) "The Power Is Yours!" [E] 10e - 5r Elite Shout. Lose all adrenaline. All party member within earshot gain 0...1 Energy for each point of adrenaline lost. (This skill actually had a use... But giving allies 1 point of energy doesn't deserve a elite status IMO. Even if it is spam able.) Energizing Finale 10e - 1sec - 5r Echo. For 10...30 seconds, whenever a shout or chant ends on target non-spirit ally, that ally gains 0…2 Energy. Inspirational Speech 10e - 2sec - 20r Skill. For 10…20 seconds your Leadership attribute is increased by +1…3. Leader's Zeal 5e - 10r Skill. The next skill target other ally uses cost 5…15 less Energy. Mending Refrain 10e - 1sec - 8r Echo. For 10…30 seconds, target non-spirit ally has +2…4 Health regeneration. This echo is reapplied every time a chant or shout ends on that ally. Purifying Finale 10e - 1sec - 8r Echo. For 10...30 seconds, target non-spirit ally loses 0...1 condition and 0…1 hex whenever a chant or shout ends on that ally. Signet of Synergy 1/2sec - 5r Signet. Target other ally is healed for 40...80 Health. If you are not under the effects of an enchantment, you are also healed for 40...80 Health. (Long recharge made this skill pretty useless.) Spear Mastery A spear is a powerful weapon in the right hands. As weapon with a short bows range and a swords attack speed (not the mention a lot of the skins) it just kicks ass. To bad a lot of the skills where useless. Chest Thumper 6a Spear Attack. If this attack hits you deal +1…10 damage. If this attack hits a foe with a Condition, that foe suffers a Cracked Armor for 5...15 seconds. Cruel Spear [E] 4a -1r Elite Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +1...25 damage. If it hits a non-moving target, you inflict a Deep Wound for 1...10 seconds. (A conditional Deep Wound and +33 damage @ spear mastery 16 it a bit weak. There is a reason most paragon spear builds don't use a Elite Spear Attack, and thats a shame.) Disrupting Throw 5e - 1/2sec - 5r Spear Attack. If this attack hits you deal +1…10 damage. If target foe is suffering from a condition that foe is interrupted. Harrier's Toss 4a Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +5...15 damage. If this attack hits a moving foe, it deals an additional 5...25 damage. Holy Spear 8a Spear Attack. If this attack hits, deal 10...50 holy damage. Maiming Spear 10e - 4r Spear Attack. If your attack hits a Bleeding foe, you strike for +15…30 damage. Mighty Throw 3a Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +10...34 damage. This attack has halve the normal range. Spear of Lightning 5e - 3r Spear Attack. If this attack hits, it deals +1...10 lightning damage. This attack has 25% armor penetration. (Already a much used Spear Attack, just a little bit on the slow side with a 6sec recharge. So reduced damage and reduced recharge. Spear of Redemption 3a Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +5...17 damage. If you hit a foe suffering from a condition you lose 1 condition. Stunning Strike [E] 6a Elite Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +5...25 damage. If it hits a foe suffering from a condition, that foe is also Dazed for 4...9 seconds. This skill has melee range. Swift Javelin 5e - 1sec Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +1...10 damage. (I always like to have a quick recharging skill on my bar that allows me to swap targets as swiftly as possible.) Unblockable Throw 6a Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +10…25 damage. This attack cannot be blocked. Vicious Attack 5e - 4r Spear Attack. If this attack hits you deal +5...20 damage. You gain 30…80 Health if target foe is suffering from a condition. Wearying Spear 3a Spear Attack. If this attack hits, you deal +10...34 damage. You are Weakened for 5 seconds if you are not under the effect of a Chant or Shout. Wild Throw 6a Spear Attack. If this attack hits, it deals +5...15 damage, and any stance being used by your target ends. This attack cannot be blocked. And that where the Paragon skills I though could use a rework. Feel free to post your own suggestions and insights. |
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Mar 21, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23
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#2 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Oct 2007
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The chant changes would be like playing afk. Press 2 chants afk for 20 seconds. This would make paragon not fun to play. Some people might like it so they can minimize guildwars and use the net or watch tv.
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Mar 21, 2011, 08:43 PM // 20:43
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#3 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Georgia
Profession: R/
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I think the chant mechanics implemented right now are fine, but the actual effects need an overhaul for sure. And as for 5/10 second chants....that would work in GW2 with their new moving+combat system as a channeling skill for sure, but for GW1...big thumbs down for that idea. Most monster fights last 10 second top in normal situations so you'd only use one skill then sit there.
Let me take an example: Chorus of Restoration 10e - 10sec -15r Chant. While chanting a Chorus of Restoration, party members within earshot under 75% health gain +1…8 health regeneration. If you had a skill like this on your bar, 2 chants would essentially cover 100% of your combat time. What would be the purpose of spear mastery or even leadership if this was implemented? By the time you use your 2 chants and they recharge again, you'd be back to full energy without even needing leadership lol. I think motivation needs a serious overhaul along with some spear mastery skills and the leadership attribute as well. Leadership shouldn't just give only energy for effected party members. That's as boring as the Energy Storage attribute and almost completely useless outside of it's obvious effect. Leadership suggestion: You gain 1 energy whenever your chants and shouts effect allies for every 2 ranks in leadership. For each ally effected, your paragon chants and shouts last 2% longer. I think that would be fair given the new dervish update; paragons specialize in shouts, chants and echoes and very few of them are actually used. Chants could be an ongoing effect like how maintainable enchantments are with some sort of negative effect, maybe -20 armor while Anthem of Flame is maintained, sort of like Aggresive Refrain. So you'd only want to still use 2 chants at most, but the effect would be party-wide ongoing effects. If not that, I still go with their on-going effect, not a "your next spell/attack...." If you have a team of casters, that immediately rids the purpose of literally half of the current shouts and chants on their line. Last edited by Aeons; Mar 21, 2011 at 08:55 PM // 20:55.. |
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Mar 21, 2011, 08:57 PM // 20:57
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#4 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Deep in the belly of Texas
Profession: R/
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sooooo...... make chants = long activating spells in which you cannot do anything while using such chant? sorry but IMO this would actually make the paragon useless
a chant is a shout with an activation time, but the short activation time still allowed the paragons to do more than just buff. elongating the chant means the paragon would not be attacking, which means he/she really wouldn't be doing jack for the party considering the chants are only one time effects. so why should a toon just stand there for 8 seconds in a chant that buffs everyones attacks just once? personally i think paragons need more echoes (specifically refrains) oh and yeah... fix the moti line /notsigned Last edited by Rites; Mar 21, 2011 at 09:01 PM // 21:01.. |
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Mar 21, 2011, 09:10 PM // 21:10
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#5 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Guild: TLP/MU
Profession: R/
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Quote:
And I didn't mean that a paragon should use Chants all the time and so being unable to do a thing. I was thinking about taking a maximum of 1/2 chants to use when needed. Rember casting chants can be stopted any time you want to. So if you think your party member no longer need the chant you cancel en send them into recharge while you can continue spear trowing. |
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Mar 21, 2011, 09:18 PM // 21:18
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#6 | ||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Deep in the belly of Texas
Profession: R/
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Quote:
AI sucks, we all know it. Paragons are much better in groups of at least 2, but with your proposed changes, the Hero paras would have to be micromanaged alot in order for them to be worthwhile. i love reading proposed changes, and some changes i have read can be interesting, but people have to remember that Hero AI should always be a consideration in these changes. Quote:
Last edited by Rites; Mar 21, 2011 at 09:28 PM // 21:28.. |
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Mar 21, 2011, 10:17 PM // 22:17
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#7 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Guild: LaZy
Profession: P/W
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Chants can be balanced much easier by lowering the AoE to Nearby/In the area and lowering recharge and buffing effects. Make the paragon watch where they are in relation to the battlefield and their allies. Change the context of those oddly specific chants, like activating on signet or spell use. Not everyone uses signets or spells, and no one wants to take a chant that cannot possibly effect everyone in a balanced team.
Like with dervishes, the bulk of those IMS skills need to go. People use Fall Back. that's pretty much it. Change some of the elite skills like Incoming, It's Just a Flesh Wound, Anthem of Fury, Cruel Spear, ect. Though not bad and completely unusable by all means, Paragons have the fewest skills along with dervishes, so much of the problem is rooted with too specific an effect for skills. bam, there you go. |
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Mar 21, 2011, 10:28 PM // 22:28
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#8 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Deep in the belly of Texas
Profession: R/
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changing shouts to just nearby range would completely ruin them in my opinion (and yes chants are just shouts)
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Mar 21, 2011, 10:44 PM // 22:44
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#9 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2009
Guild: FILA
Profession: P/
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The only weakness is that the live team has sworn off major attribute redefinition style updates.
I like the idea for the Leadership change a lot and it manages to buff skills very even-handedly. It creates a role for the paragon without overpowering it, and keeps the imbagon build viable. If this was implemented I would definitely enjoy setting out with 3 paragon heroes. |
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Mar 21, 2011, 10:48 PM // 22:48
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#10 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2009
Guild: FILA
Profession: P/
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I misread you a little bit. I didn't realize that you meant the para to be motionless while chants were in effect. I can see making it so they could not use any other chants or shouts during the time they were chanting, but I would hope to be able to chant and at least throw spears or move.
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Mar 21, 2011, 11:09 PM // 23:09
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#11 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wrocław, Poland
Guild: Midnight Mayhem
Profession: Me/
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Quote:
I'm ambivalent to the details provided by OP, but seriously, people whining at how the game would become hard after implementing some new, fun and useful things make me want to throw a chair at them. Instead of 10s cast time, just make them shouts with 10s duration. Only one chant active at a time, like stances. Every chant activated by you makes you deal x% less damage, or drains energy every second, or makes you lose all adrenaline and not gain any new, or slows you down, or a bit of everything. |
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Mar 21, 2011, 11:39 PM // 23:39
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#12 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Somewhere in a distant land..
Guild: Reign of Judgement [RoJ]
Profession: E/
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Quote:
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Mar 22, 2011, 12:10 AM // 00:10
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#13 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2009
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paragons honestly are not that underpowered. sure they have some useless skills, but have several viable skills and elites, including stunning strike, incoming, tpiy, flesh wound, defensive anthem, focused anger, soldiers fury, song of purification, and song of restoration
the problem is that other professsions are just op. since at this point people are used to anet buffing other professions like crazy, they expect the same with the para. in fact, i think the only underpowered class atm is ele nukers in hm |
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Mar 22, 2011, 12:11 AM // 00:11
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#14 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Guild: LaZy
Profession: P/W
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Quote:
Thusly, I'm sure they are opposed to JUST lowering the recharge of things like Ballad/Song of Restoration, and lowering the AoE of chants make them more unique a mechanism, gives the paragon personality and allows them to buff their effects accordingly to a much more attractive level. |
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Mar 22, 2011, 12:58 AM // 00:58
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#15 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada bro.
Profession: A/D
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1.Make every spear attack aoe
2. Make Paragons great battery's 3. Keep Imbagon. 4. Never look back. |
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Mar 22, 2011, 02:36 AM // 02:36
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#16 | ||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Deep in the belly of Texas
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Quote:
average party setup is frontline/midline/backline with a paragon as a midliner, most frontliners are usually at the edge of aggro(shout) range. so you want your midliner to move closer to the frontline (where he/she shouldn't be) to be able to buff the frontliners? isn't that kinda opposite of what its job function is? and if the paragon is near the frontline buffing the frontliners, then that means backline isnt getting any buffs and dont tell me that i have a closed minded look at party setups, using minions = having a frontline Last edited by Rites; Mar 22, 2011 at 02:50 AM // 02:50.. |
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Mar 22, 2011, 05:37 AM // 05:37
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#17 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Aug 2006
Guild: Guernsey Milking Coalition[MiLk]
Profession: E/Me
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Just revert NF Para skills back to original form and keep the PvE only skills the same. That way Motivation is relevant again.
Let's face it: Motivation is the worst attribute in the game bar none. Anything that is done in that line can be done better on an(other) (class)(es) with shorter recharge times and to greater effect. |
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Mar 22, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55
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#18 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: R/
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SY! and TNTF! need to die if they want paras to have any kind of build diversity. It does everything that Motivation is trying to do, better, while allowing you to put as many points in command as you want for 1-3 support skills from that far superior line.
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Mar 22, 2011, 04:10 PM // 16:10
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#19 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2010
Guild: [Pink]
Profession: P/
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Paragon definitely are the class most in need of an update... after all, anything they can do, another class can do better (except imbagon... which needs nerfing). While the same is true for rangers, they at least have a larger variety of viable builds than a paragon has, hence why paragon should be the next focus of anet. As for changes:
1. Nerf SY (a complete change in functionality would be best, as this would make skills like watch yourself and stand your ground useable). 2. Rework chants. They should be activatable by the paragon. Currently, with each individual party member activating the chants, they are way too random to be useful, even if the effects are buffed. 3. Change the ridiculously conditional or situational skills. While shouts like brace yourself and can't touch this are useful in their own niches, there are too many of these niche skills for a profession already short on skills, relative to most others. 4. Buff the obviously weak skills. Some skills like angelic bond (hell... I wouldn't even use this skill if it were non-elite), angelic protection, and bladeturn refrain are simply way too weak for their intended use. Some elites like crippling anthem and anthem of guidance don't have elite-worthy effects. 5. Change the overly redundant skills. Paragon have three elite condition removals, which is a lot considering how many elites they have in all. Incoming is redundant with fall back and largely useless in general PvE anyway. There are also too many make allies run faster skills. Make haste and fall back should be enough. Hasty refrain, godspeed, and incoming should, therefore be changed. 6. Signet of synergy = 5 sec recharge. If paragon are supposed to be able to heal to some extent, I don't think it is asking too much to have one decent single Target heal. 7. Speaking of single targeting, there needs to be more emphasis on single Target skills. Making ectos, signets, etc. activate the chants would accomplish this. 8. It would be nice to have another option for a self buff (natural temper could be Rework... additional crit hit chance maybe?). There is my suggestion list. Numbers can obviously be teamed for individual skills to fix overpowered or underpowered skills. |
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